167. How teaching students with visual impairments has changed with Jill Brown

Topics:

parents, visual impairment, work, teacher, learners, vocational programs, pushed, kids, learning, high school, texas, skills, child, educate, step, students, class, podcast, classrooms, grow

Welcome back to the podcast, my friends. First of all, we have been gone for a hot minute, I've been mostly working with learners and doing a lot of evaluations. And so I have not had a chance to hop on podcast and record and start doing it my car and didn't really work and blah, blah, blah, lots of stuff. So we paused because that's what I needed at the time. And now we're back. And we're back with a fantastic, exceptional episode. Today's episode, I am interviewing my friend Jill Brown, who is now retired. And she is a teacher of students with visual impairments and an orientation and mobility specialist. She has been working in Texas for a very long time since the 70s. And we'll get into so many different aspects of teaching, including how things were before ADA after ADA, the role of parents and even what you can do right now to be a better teacher. That's right, it's all coming down the pipe for you in this episode of a step forward.

Welcome, Jill Brown!

So I'm so glad that you're here on the podcast with me today. I have admired you from afar for many years. So it's really cool to get to work with you on the TVI online symposium, get to learn from your expertise, because you've been doing this a little while. And to really see how just calm and serene you are about making these tough decisions has been really awesome to watch. I know that our community doesn't know that much about you. So would you like to introduce yourself? Sure. I'm Jill Brown, I am dually certified. I got my TDI back in 1978 79. And I got my oh nm in 1996 or 94. So I taught many years before I did that. And then in 2002, I went back and got my master's. So

when I first started, nobody knew what to do with this because we were coming right out of 94 142 I don't think Id EA had even started yet.

 How things were when IDEA began

It's been very interesting to watch this field grow up. And in retrospect and looking forward, I see this field still has so much more growing to do, especially with all the research that's coming out with technology with brain research, and all the new ways that we can teach and connect with our kids. It's really exciting. It never never is the same.

And it for the new ones coming into the field. It's very exciting because there's just so much new things coming down for them. I just want to backtrack a little bit. So you've been in the field since the 70s. And watching things happen. Let's start with IDA. What how was the landscape like before ide a and then how was the landscape after that passed? Okay. When I first started, kids were just beginning to be integrated

within the educational realm, in the classrooms or whatever, they were still in separate rooms.

My hell hope when I first come out, I was very excited that these kids wouldn't have to be educated in the background. Like when I went to school, there were no such things as special needs classrooms.

And it's nice to see that everybody knows what special needs is now. It's not as integrated as I thought it would be. And what I mean by that is regular teachers don't always take the ownership that they need to when they have a child in their class.

At the same time, I don't think they have the education that a TVI, or special ed teacher has to help them with that gap.

When I first started, the kids were in their own classrooms, we had lunch together, we had PE together, we were still separated. But we're just beginning to have the regular kids come and mingle and talk with our kids. That was exciting to see that that natural, organic occurrence of friendships, I think that's happening post id EA more frequently and more organically, you don't have to really

push them together. Like that.

Parents now have a voice, host ID EA, that they can say, this is what I want for my child, this is what I don't want for my child. And yes, my child can have expectations that you give other kids.

 Increasing education of learners with visual impairments through inclusion

Just because they have a vision loss, or they have brain dysfunction doesn't mean you don't educate them. And that has pushed our field and all fields forward nicely. So you mentioned that kids would be taught like in the background. And I'm a little curious as to your thoughts now about how Ida shaped where education went. But then now we're starting to have a lot more students with impairments still in the classroom. More of like an inclusiveness, but the regular teacher isn't being taught how to teach them. So do you feel like we've come full circle? Do you feel like, you know, maybe we've taken too many steps forward, we need to find a little bit of a middle, do you? What is your perspective on, you know, where we were before Ida, and then how you saw it progress. And now where we're kind of going with, including learners with multiple impairments and other impairments into the general ed classroom a lot, but without the training? Yeah, I think what's going to have to happen, maybe we have pushed it too fast, too far. But at the same time, if we didn't, then Gen Ed wouldn't catch up ever. So because we have pushed them beyond their limits, your gen ed teachers and most of your gen ed teachers really want to try to include all kids, they want to reach all their kids, if they have a heart of a teacher, that's what they want to do.

So we're pushing the gen ed teachers to be able to have more background, to want to do that. At the same time. These kids that are now in inclusive education, hopefully we'll be more inclusive in job training skills when they get older, and as adults, that still not quite caught up. But I think it's much further along than again, when I was first started.

So we've come a long way, we have a long way to go. Oh, always, I mean, just education, the system in general, the backbone of education system. I don't think it's working like it did in the past, because our society is different than it was in the past. And we're not training people to be industrialized workers. And so all the science that started our education system, as we know right now, it's just not the same.

That was sounded solid back where we're going right now, is not exactly those places. So I can see where you're saying when you say that, you know, maybe we've gone too far, but also wish that whenever there's change, it's only because people are uncomfortable. So when I'm hearing the special ed teachers and the general ed teacher is complaining, and how things are too hard. And sometimes I'm like, that's a good thing, because that means that you're going to be a little uproarious, and you're gonna get your needs met, and you're going to ask for different trainings that maybe you would have before. So I think you do have a point, Joe, that maybe we pushed it too far, but maybe it's not too far. It's just an opening right now and as things open, it's never really comfortable. When they open for the first time. You know, if you think about like digging out a tunnel or anything that

that gets birth right the first time it's a very uncomfortable situation. So you're right, maybe it is a good thing that special ed and

general ed teachers are complaining about this. That's a good point. A great example of this is when I first started, there was no such thing as cortical visual impairment, there was no such thing as brain based visual impairment. And when that first card had coming down in the 90s, people are sitting there, what, what, we don't educate these kids, they don't have an ocular visual impairment. When parents pushed, and parents pushed, and then people started looking at it, well, maybe there is something there, research started following up, catching up with that to show Yes, it's not an ocular visual impairment, it is a brain based visual impairment, but it's still a visual impairment. Now, here's a new set of skills that you're going to have to work with.

And we've learned, you know, we pushed ourselves, we got out of our comfort zones. And now we're able to educate all kinds of children with with brain based visual impairments, not just cortical. And yes, it's a different set of skills, but we're learning it.

That's true, that's another great way to look at it. And you've mentioned twice now parents, and I forget, as a parent, how impactful we as parents can be. And also when we're teachers, sometimes we forget how important the parent is on the team. They're like the last to know things sometimes, which isn't always the most fair. But you've mentioned twice now that it's been parents advocating for things. And that's why education in total has changed. Like, How amazing would that be to be one of those parents who fought for your child with a brain based visual impairment and the parent probably didn't fully understand this, either. I mean, it was all new science, I'm sure. Because putting those two together is

really tricky to understand. And even though I, I graduated,

um, 2000s is something

it's, it was still very brand new to us. And it had been in the fields. And you said, since the 90s, no, parents are very important. And it's sad, because

having the awesome ability here in Texas, that we can work with families from birth, through high school, when you go into the home, it's the family first, it's the family first, it's the family first, when they hit five, or three, and now they're in part B, or public education. It's not family first. And I think we take away from the parent,

that that accountability or their knowledge, they know their child better than I do. I don't care how many degrees I have, how much background I have, that parent knows that child. And you've got to listen, you've got to understand that and you've got to respect that.

Yeah, what have been some of your biggest tips for working with parents?

Listen to them.

Even if you don't think they're right.

You have to understand where they're coming from, because what they see may not be exactly what you see. If they're telling me oh, yes, little Johnny can dress himself. And I'm sitting there, he doesn't do it at school. And then I go home, and I see what accommodations she's got in place. So he can dress himself. Well guess in that perspective, Johnny can dress himself. So I really try to give parents a lot of credit, where credit is due. And if I don't understand that, I asked them to show it to me, so I can understand what they're seeing.

I never tell a parent. No, that's not possible. Like I had a parent of a child who was nonverbal, non visual, non ambulatory, she wanted her child to be able to read well, rather than say, Oh, honey, he will never read. I said, that could be a possibility. Here are the steps we must take first. And we'll start with this step. And if he goes, then we'll go to step two.

So I don't want to have them lose that hope. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes it's the opposite to where the kid doesn't do things at home and they do things for us. And sometimes I have to be like, okay, yes, I said that they could do that. But like, it was only in one specific setting, and I'm standing in this specific spot and, and sometimes I'll get pushback from parents so they don't, they can't cross the street or they can't do that and I'll be like, Okay, wait, wait, let me tell you the rest of the story.

Are you here, because they can only do it in this setting, let's figure out how to generalize it to you as well. So that way they do it with their parents too. And I find that getting to work directly with the parents has been one of my greatest joys, I love it so much, because that's really where you make the impact, because we are only with our learners 1% of the time, Braille readers, if you're a TVI, it's 2% of the time of their whole waking lives. That's it, that's all we have. So we're really not the expert, no parents are going to do the follow through. And thankfully, in two days, now, we can videotape to show the parent, that communication with that parent also tells the child that mom and teacher or dad and teacher are on the same page. And you know how kids like to see what mom is thinking versus what dad is thinking, while they do the same thing with caregiver and teacher. So you've got to be on the same page. Oh, 100%. So you've been in the field a long time, what has been some of the biggest challenges that you've faced over the years? Challenges, some things have never changed?

I think when we're working with teachers, they still don't get it. Even after a whole year they do get it. It's like, well, can you talk to next year's teacher, so they don't. And when I say they don't get it, their expectations for progress and for the child to produce work are very low, if not none, where if you have those higher expectations that child will produce for you.

And produce equal to especially if it's a vision impairment only that they will produce equal work of their sighted peers. I find generally teachers don't feel that way.

The other biggest frustration right now is we are educating our kids. And this goes more for multiple impaired kids, which I have a huge heart for. We can educate them so much. But there's nothing for them post high school. And that's really upsetting to me, that there's so much they can do. And there's nothing out there for them. workwise I do know, colleges have started some classes for special needs kids so they can continue their education.

But there's nothing out there. So yeah, I agree. I also think that our vocational programs are have have become lackluster. Because, again, there are so many other avenues for entrepreneurship, if you just look at me, people ask like, how did you get your job? And I'm like, What do you mean, get my job, I made it up. I literally made this up out of my head. And now this is my job. You saw a need.

Yeah, I saw a need. And I educated myself on how to like business practices specifically for me heart centered business practices is where I'm at. But you know, how to run a business, how to what are all these things are what I see for our learners. Like, they could have their own Etsy shop, they could be freelancers, they can, there's so much, there's so much more that they can do. And a lot of the vocational programs that I see and no shade to the vocational programs that are out there because they're just doing their best. But it doesn't it doesn't. It's not competing with the workforce right now with where we are. Correct? Correct. And they're not tapping into the kids talents either.

Again, you have to fit the mold.

Because that's all they have.

Yeah, it is all that they have installed that they know. And I

am constantly flabbergasted when I go into vocational program. And I wonder why our students are screwing on nuts and bolts. Like that has very no very little application in the real world.

Except for fine motor skills, of course, but that's no, no. Yeah, they should be learning I guess what, what you have to do is look at what kind of jobs set skills are going to be needed.

And look at it that way and start breaking it down. I do know in a

In the school district, I used to work at our vocational class, especially for the juniors and seniors in high school, went out into the community

folding towels in the laundry part of the hospital, hanging up clothes for Goodwill. So they were doing stuff like that.

I know that you're limited and where you can bring a class. But looking at those skills, okay, let's bring that back down to the elementary. So fold there is a reason why we fold towels or Fold Napkins. The reason why we sort silverware or our package stuff.

Yeah, exactly. And you mentioned that after school, there's very little for them. And I think that's also you know, where we fall short, I have my own theories and thoughts about capitalism and workforce and worth and why those programs don't get as much money. And, you know, who knows if I'm actually right or wrong about that. But it is really interesting to watch our learners and especially those with multiple impairments, as the world of teaching students with visual impairments grows to begin to include all learners, both all the way down to birth, and then widened across to multiple and parents as well. It's been really interesting, even in the 15 years that I've been doing this, to see our profession grow. And then you're right after high school, there's very little support, and it drops off for them. I have had some learners that I've been able to keep in touch with, you know, just on Facebook, and I can see the things that they're doing. And it's wonderful that they're keeping up their skills that they had, but it does make me feel really sad sometimes that they could take those skills and use it elsewhere. But they would need a job coach consistently, probably for

and what I've noticed is those students that have graduated, that I've come in contact with those that are successful, it's because their parents were behind them pushing those that stayed home. That's what their parents wanted. Oh, yeah. More parents, more parents? Ah,

no, that's a really good point. Yeah. Well, it really is. Because

for typically developing people, you have parents who push kids to go to college or to go to work or whatever, and be successful. And then you have parents who sit home and expect that it's okay for their kid to sit home. Right?

That's true. There's so much to dive into it.

Because you can see it across the board. Yes. Not all parents. It's not that they're special needs. It's just expectations. It's expectations. True. So as a teacher of students with visual impairments, what are some of the expectations that you found that you held across the board for all of your learners that helped to make them successful?

Communication?

One, I had to bond with them, they had to bond with Me, and then I could push them to go to their limits. I would for my verbal kids, I always ask them, What did they want to do after high school? So already, even if they were, if they were in first or second grade, what do you want to do when you grow up? Let's push that. Okay, now you want to be an airplane pilot, we're going to have to have all these math skills or reading skills, or whatever, from my high school students. What do you want to do getting them to think outside of high school?

To think beyond? I think that's what helps give them a purpose of learning. That's true. How did you do that? Through through my evaluations and knowing what they needed through talking with them, and finding out where their strengths and weaknesses were, and then talking about it together, and this is more with my high school kids.

Saying, well, this is what I'm going to teach you. This is why I'm going to put it into your IEP.

And, and I've always discussed this before the the IEP meeting or ARD meeting, so that it wasn't new to them. For my elementary age, I just related it to reading and writing and this is what you're going to need in high school. This is the next step.

Yeah, and I'm sure you got a lot of buy in as well from them by having that conversation prior because you've probably made it really applicable to them and their internal motivation and not just like externally. You telling them what they're gonna say

With that, yeah, you do have a say you really don't. But you do have a say. Yeah. So

I want to take one second and put a pin in. You mentioned ARD. I've only really come across that in Texas. For those of you guys who are listening ARD is really an IEP meeting in Texas. It stands for admissions, review and dismissal, the entire IEP process. So just in case you were like, what was that? What acronym? Did I miss in my career? You don't know what it is. It's not a big deal. It's only a Texas thing.

Texas has to be different. I was just about to say that. It's after.

Like, we're still our own country, or not our own country, but we'll make up our own rules. I and, Jill, have you been teaching in Texas for your entire career? I did. I did. I graduated college in Pennsylvania from Kutztown. At that time, it was pittstown state teachers college with a degree in Elementary Ed and visual deficiency.

And when I came to Texas in 1970, well, 1979 That summer,

it was a bit turned into visual, actually, I guess it was wasn't visual impairment back then. But eventually it turned into visual impairment. The wording here.

Very cool. I love how the words have continued to change to now we've got all of our acronyms continued to change. I have just absolutely loved this conversation with you. Jill, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, I want to ask you one last question that I like to ask everybody who comes on, you know, our podcast is all about taking a step forward. You don't have to be perfect all the time. It's just a matter of taking literally one step forward every day, that one step that you could do. In your opinion, what's one step that teachers can take to become better versions of themselves.

Just picking yourself up, you are going to make mistakes, own up to those mistakes, and learn. There's so many ways that we can enhance our knowledge, through webinars through classes online, there's so much information out there, get connected, just keep on learning, because it never stops. Oh, and I think you're such a great example of that you continue to show up and are learning more and are even on the planning committee for the TVI online symposium where we're going to be having, I cannot imagine how great this symposium was going to be. It's our first one all for TV eyes. And the presentation applications that we have are so phenomenal. And Gil actually put in presentation application as well.

That's happening September 21, and 22nd. So I agree with everything that you said, Joe, we can feel like we're on a lonely island all by ourselves. And if we can get together with other people around the country locally, and learn and continue to grow. I think you're such a great example of that. Which is why, you know, you're so admirable and I'm just so appreciative of you. I've been teaching 40 plus years and I still only know this much. There's so much more out there. And I love learning. Yeah, that's what makes you so great. Well, thank you so much for your time. Gil, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. Thank you