This is it. Today is the day today is the day that your mind gets blown as to what is possible for women in this field. Today, I get to introduce you to Emily Coleman, who is the first female superintendent of the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. And while yes, I was shaking in my boots, when we asked Emily to come on to our little podcast, I am so grateful that she agreed. Not only is this woman so inspirational, but she is one of the nicest people I've ever spoken to in my life. And she kind of makes it seem like we can do anything. So if you need that dose of like, can I even get through this day? Listen to this episode, because the answer is yes. But I'm not gonna say it. I'm gonna let her share the way that she looks at things. And hopefully we can start to take on a little bit of that perspective. And if we do, maybe we can be as impactful as this amazing woman.

In this podcast episode:

• Who is Emily Coleman and how she got into visual impairment

• Being a parent and also a teacher

• Stepping into a new role

• A few challenges faced

• Emily’s experience coming in after a professional

• A little bit about Emily’s podcast

• Being the first female superintendent

• Taking a step forward with Emily

Transcript of the Episode:

Who is Emily Coleman and how she got into visual impairment

Kassy:
Welcome back to a step forward! Today is gonna be such a great time, I hope that you have a little bit extra time to spend with us because you will leave today feeling so inspired. I want to introduce you to Emily Coleman, the superintendent of the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. And yes, if you're asking if I have goosebumps right now, just saying that I absolutely 100% do! Still cannot believe this amazing woman offered us her time. So take everything that she has to say and see how you can apply it to your life because her perspective is phenomenal. And I really think that how she looks at the world is how she got to be where she is right now.

Emily is currently the superintendent of the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired making her the first female Superintendent of TSBVI. Meaning she is breaking glass ceilings for all women everywhere. And not only is she breaking those glass ceilings, but she's somehow managing to do it with so much grace and humbleness that you don't always get to see because the administrators are in their offices doing their thing. Emily is also a wife and a mom as well. One of her children has a visual impairment, which led her to being a blogger and social media facilitator at the American Foundation for the Blind, starting in March of 2011. Now she stayed there and she also became a teacher of students with visual impairments in Washington and became a guest lecturer at Eastern Washington University.

Okay, we're not stopping there, right? This is where most of us were like, cool, we're getting off our train here like, we're good. But then she became the Director of Outreach for the Washington State School for the Blind. And then three years later, moved to Texas to become the director of outreach for the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired. And literally one year after that, her role just went and became the superintendent.Now I say it like that. So casual, we all know, it's all very casual. Because within each of these professional advancements, she had to get another degree. So she was working full time, and going to school full time, and being a mom and a wife and a seemingly really cool person, all at the same time. Now, that's what I want us to take from this today. So I'm not going to waste too much more of your time. I'm gonna just introduce you to Emily. Right now. Let's go to the show.

Thank you so much for coming on this episode of a step forward, Emily. When I saw that you agreed to come on this podcast. I squealed like a little girl, because I, I've admired you from afar. And I think that everything that you've done that I know about anyway, it's just been so amazing. And as such a powerful leader in this field, the fact that you were willing to take time and share a little bit more about yourself with our community here at Allied Independence is just such… it was just such a really sweet moment. So thank you so much.

Emily:
Well, I still feel like why does anyone want to talk to me? So I also get excited when people reach out to do an interview.

Kassy:
Okay. So, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'd love for you to share a little bit about who you are. And maybe what got you started or piqued your interest in getting into the field of visual impairments?

Emily:
Yes, so my current role is the superintendent of TSBVI. But I didn't really set out to be an administrator. I have a 17 year old.... So I have three teenage children, my middle child was born with optic nerve hypoplasia. And that was in 2005. And at that time, I was a stay at home mom. But I did have a teaching degree in something else. So… but I never taught. I did like student teaching. And then I applied for jobs, and I didn't get a job. And so then we just started having a family, my husband and I.So anyway, so I was a stay at home parent and did that for about seven years. But when my son was like, I don't know, three years old, his early intervention TVI was like, Hey, have you ever thought about teaching? And I said, Well, I do have this teaching degree. And she was like, what? So she kind of kept nagging at me. And then I think he was almost five, when I finally went back to school, I went to Portland State and got my TVI certifications.So it definitely was one of those things where I didn't know this field existed until my son was born. Like most people, you have a personal experience that sort of leads you into this line of work.

Kassy:
Right. I think that's such an amazing thing. So not only are you a mom, and a teacher, but you're also a mom of somebody who has a visual impairment, which doesn't make things easier, necessarily, and you've still risen to being the superintendent of the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired, and forgive me if I'm wrong. But are you the first female superintendent?Emily:Yeah, isn't that crazy? And like, it's, I don't know, 150 year plus history, that's just nuts to be.

Being a parent and also a teacher

Kassy:
I think it's such a giant step forward in our profession. And it kind of goes to show that even though we're teachers, and we think that teaching is, you know, run, operated by females, the higher up you go, it's, it becomes more male, percentage wise, and less female. And we see that just across the board and corporate and everything else. Can you tell me from when you decided to become a teacher of students with visual impairments, then you're kind of out in the world. How was that experience having both the parental knowledge and the teacher side of things?

Emily:
Yeah, you know, it was… it is hard. And there was even a time early in my career, where I was assigned to be my own son's TVI. And so then I was… that didn't last very long. I couldn't advocate on both sides of the table. And, you know, as a parent, I would say he needed certain things. And as a TVI, I knew it was true. But to that, from the outside world looking in, it looked like I was trying to work the system a little bit, I think. And so that was hard.One benefit is that I know exactly what it's like to be a parent in those ARD meetings, IEP meetings. And so I have a lot, I built some really strong relationships with families. In addition, another great benefit was that I had five years under my belt of working one on one with a child that's blind, but also has multiple disabilities. And, you know, we all have this steep learning curve as teachers for how to connect with children that don't communicate in traditional ways. And so having a lot of time to learn how to do that, and it took me years, like, when he was little, there was so much that I did wrong, just because you don't know what you don't know. And so I had the benefit of coming into teaching with the perspective of knowing how to connect with a child that's unique and also teaching them and being respectful of them and how important it is to you know, use hand under hand and give them experiences and things like that, where as a teacher, it takes a lot of time. To learn that just because you have different kids on your caseload, so I think that was the biggest asset for me.

Kassy:
Yeah. Did other people look up to you? Like your colleagues?

Emily:
You know, I think so… It's one of those things where when you are seen as a leader, you don't always know it yourself until somebody points it out to you. So I think, you know, you talked about my career, and it was a pretty fast career progression. And part of it was that I was recognised as a person that could fulfill leadership roles and that had this unique perspective of educator and parent. And so I was asked to do a lot of things and I always said, yes, because it felt like an opportunity. For example, I wrote a blog for many years for a family connect and that happened when I wasn't even in the profession yet. They called and said, Hey, you were, you know, recommended to do this blog thing, just someone out of nowhere. And then I think I wrote like 200… more than 200 articles or something.

So I think people saw something in me that I just didn't really notice myself, and, and I just kind of jumped on any opportunity for sharing my story, benefiting even just one other person, it seemed like a good use of time.

Kassy:
Right. I feel… I can completely see that. And only having known of you since you became the director at TSBVI. Because you came in, right as I was leaving. And I just got to hear all the amazing things that you were doing. And that has not stopped. It's been amazing. But I could see as a parent, and with your personality, how people would view you as a leader, and how it'd be really easy as you, the teacher person at the time, to reach across the couch to the mom be able to like, put your hand on her knee and say, girl, I understand so much more than like I can, you know?

Emily:
Yeah. I mean, I think there's a level of empathy that we have, as a mom of any kids like you’re mom, you know. I think all of us know that we've never eaten so many words is the day we had our own children. Just like, you're like, Oh, I swore my kid wouldn't have a pacifier. And they weren't gonna get all this screen time. And then you're a parent. And you're like, yeah, forget all that. But I think the one unique thing about being a mom of a child with special needs, is that when they're little, when they're identified in early intervention, your house is full of people all the time. And that part can be exhausting. And you're giving you know, you're given all these things to work on with your kid. And so I always liked doing the early intervention piece, because I had a TVI that early on, told me, you know, I know that you're getting a lot of information, but the only thing you have to remember every day is that you're a mom, and you just do what you can do and the rest will come. And so I was appreciative to be able to share that information with other moms that are overwhelmed with raising a child that is new to them, information that's new, and they feel like they're just buried in it. And you got to say it's okay to say no, like, I would have people come in and say, Okay, this is an activity, I want you to do 20 minutes, you know, three times a day. And then I would say no, like this, but I can do it. You know, it's just that's life so.

Kassy:
That's true. And that gives us a really good reminder, one thing that I'm always trying to remind our community of is that being a parent is so hard, like if the mom the dad, the caregiver doesn't call you back, if they don't answer your texts. It's not you. This is so hard.

Emily:
Yeah. And you know, I also appreciated the professionals that came in and just let me vent like, sometimes they'd never even put hands on Eddie. They'd show up and I'd be like, Eddie's taking a nap. And at the time, my other daughter was 18 months older than Eddie. So I had a toddler and a baby. And I would just cry and talk and share. And I'd say see you next time. And that also meant a lot because at least those early intervention providers understand they work a lot with kids with special needs. Whereas none of my friends had a child in the same boat, and so they couldn't relate to me. But even professionals can see they're in living rooms all the time. They're with the moms. They know what's up and so that's important too.

Stepping into a new role

Kassy:
Yeah, have you taken that same empathetic role as you've risen through the ranks and become a leader now who is now having to enforce, you know, IEPs, and data and metrics and all of that. How's that?

Emily:
Yeah you know, it's one thing that I have learned… You know, every time you step into a new role, you gain understanding and the weight of position that you're in. And as a teacher and a young mom, I used to… there, you know, administrators would make me so angry, because they wouldn't give me what I knew my son needed. And I remember a mentor of mine once said, you know, Emily, nobody gets into special education because they hate kids. Like, they're not sitting in their office, like, Ooh, how are we going to take Eddie out today? Like, that's not what they're doing. And as you… as you learn more about special education, and funding and systems, there's so many things that are outside of our control. And we're always just sort of doing the best that we can. But in addition to that, and you know, another thing that I was sort of learned along the way through my leadership training and things is, you know, there's just, there's essentially two questions that I asked myself whenever there's something tough going on, or a hard decision to make. And it's like, the first question is always what's best for kids? And if you know the answer to that, then you, you just have to do that answer. You always have to do what's best for kids. And the second one is, what would I do if I wasn't afraid? Because usually, sometimes when you can't do what's best for kids, it's because there's fear of something, you know, fear of losing your job, of being seen as confrontational of all of these things. And so those are sort of my two guiding things when I'm in a sticky situation is like, Okay, what's the best thing for kids? Okay, you have to do that. Even if you're scared, like, you just have to do it. So that's been helpful.

Kassy:
That's such great advice. No matter who you are, no matter where you are on the spectrum in this field, having those two guideposts will really help you to figure that out. And you know, it's funny as I just interviewed a principal, Jamie Lugo, who used to work there.

Emily:
Love, Jamie!

Kassy:
I know. But she also said, that same question of what's best for the kids is always her go to first question, because you guys, the conversation is a little bit parallel. And I don't know when we're going to… which order we're going to air these episodes. And so for those of you guys listening, I don't know if you'll hear this. I don't know whether it's going to happen at the time of this recording. But at some point, you will hear both. And she also mentioned, you mentioned like to be seen as confrontational, and wanting to please people, I think as women we are socialised to please people and as leaders, we can't because sometimes not everybody wins.

Emily:
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I… you know, I think that we also are guilty, sometimes of more self doubt. Like, is just because I don't agree with you, you know, I start to question well, maybe I'm not… maybe my opinions not right, or, and I think just the more opportunities, you have to assert your opinion, have really crucial conversations. We just, you know, I've gained more confidence in being… I like to be decisive. I'm a very decisive person. I like things to move forward, I like to find a solution. I want to make a decision and see how it goes. And so I think that that just comes with practice and confidence, gaining confidence in yourself along the way.

Kassy:
Yeah, and you just mentioned and see how it goes.

Emily:
Yes.

Kassy:
Not always… 

Emily:
Not always right.

A few challenges faced

Kassy:
Yeah, and most things you can reverse. If you're like, Oh, I… that was wrong, I'm sorry. Some things you can go back to the team and say, okay, human, we have learned, the new data shows. That's my, that's my go to my team, the new data shows. Well, we have gathered since I made this erroneous decision, because you can't hold yourself to the decisions that you made even 10 minutes ago with the information that you just got. You are a different person, and things like that. So can I ask what has been besides having to make those tough decisions as you have gone up through the ranks? What's been one of the big challenges that you've had to face? Both in your work life but I'm also curious about balancing, you know, your whole life because you're a whole person and a whole human running this huge ship. And you've done so with changing jobs very frequently? Well, yeah, very frequently.

Emily:
Yeah, pretty much. You know, a lot of the challenges come with like, you know, all of us moms that work. One of my great assets is a husband that's a stay at home dad. When I… as I said earlier, I stayed home for seven years with the kids and when I decided I was going to go back to work and took my first position at the Washington State School for the Blind. My husband agreed to be the stay at home parent, because with a child like Eddie, we can't do child care. Like, you know, we couldn't just throw him in a daycare, and not like parents throw their kids to the daycare but…

Kassy:
I just toss my kids over like see ya! Yeah, I mean, some days these days, I am like, very grateful for things like school buses, and I do actually call it my child transportation but… 

Emily:
I just always dreamed of throwing him into daycare, but it wasn't a viable solution. Yeah. And so that has really allowed us to one it's allowed me to say yes to every opportunity that came my way. It also gave me a way, you know, I had to go back to school and do two years of an administrator programme, after I had gotten my master's degree. So you know, he was able to support my… when I went through my master's programme, and then when I was working and finishing my master's programme, and then going back and getting an administrative credential. And so that has just, you know, I know that I'm so lucky in that way. Because not everybody has the ability to have a support system like that. But also in jobs, you know, those of us that work in this field, we love it so much. Like I love going to conferences, I love being on the road, I love meeting new families and professionals. And it's like addicting because it's so fantastic.

And when I was in Washington, when I moved into an administrator job, it was a statewide position and I was on the road, probably four days a week staying in hotels, flying travelling, and I absolutely loved it. And then I did it for three years. And realised like wow, I never see my kids like they're taking care of, I'm working, you know, you just kind of get into this grind. And so that was a challenge to recognise, like, I have a job that I absolutely love. And I maybe need to mix it up. And so when we moved to Texas, the position was more stationary, still some travel, but not nearly as extensive.And then another challenge was just watching my son in school and knowing that there were better programmes elsewhere, just because of the nature of resources available. The systems in place. You know, I've probably been to a dozen schools for the blind and have always visited them with the eye of should this be where Eddie is. And Texas was the first time we came in. We're like, Okay. TSBVI is uniquely set up to meet his specific needs. And there's just not a lot of schools that fit his needs so perfectly as Texas does. So yeah.

Kassy:
That is… that is so beautiful. How was it in that moment, as a mom looking around at this school, that… that would have been the time where like, the construction was done, and everything was kind of like put back into place. So it at least look nice. I can't imagine before… beautiful people, lovely curriculum, you know, it just like as a parent might have been like this a lot of destruction. But as a mom, how was that feeling to be like, Wow, I can finally see my child prospering here?

Emily:
So we had come down, it was before I had applied for the outreach director job, and we just wanted to see if it was something we were even wanted to consider. And one of the assistant principals who is still here, Janelle, gave us a tour and she was fantastic. And, you know, my son was a tactile symbol user and had had minimal access to that. And so just seeing the tactile symbol room, I was tearing up. Like, oh, my gosh, it's like ready to go. And then, you know, we did our tour. And afterwards, my husband and I went and got a beer, because we like to go to local breweries and like, like a lot of adults do. And so we were sitting across from each other. But I always tear up when I tell the story because he started to tear up but I said, I said, Are you crying because of this programme for Eddie? Or are you crying because you know, we have to move to Texas now? He’s like both… like both because we're both born and raised in Washington state, all our family there like, that's the climate we like. Okay, I guess we're going to Texas kind of thing or at least gonna throw a hat in so.

Kassy:
Well, you would have been able to move and snag a job as a teacher students with visual impairments or somewhere. Right? And all of your other accolades. I will have to say the fact that you were at a brewery, I was like, Yes! We have so many great breweries, but then the climate that… that is different.

Emily:
I came from Florida and I'm like, this is as far north as I go, you guys like this is my latitude cut off. That's so funny. 

Emily’s experience coming in after a professional

Kassy:
No, I can't imagine the opposite. But when you came to TSBVI, one thing that people may not understand is each role that you've stepped into, you succeeded somebody who had done like really massive things. And the first role, you succeeded the person who created the outreach that basically put TSBVI on the map that moved it from the level of most other schools for the blind, which are all great, to the Mecca. How was that experience to come in after such a powerhouse of a professional?

Emily:
Yeah, you know, I think one thing that benefited me was my personality, because I'm always a little bit like, I don't know if naive is the right word, but like, I'm very aware of Cyril Miller. Like her and I worked together as outreach directors in different states for a couple years. And so I knew her, of course, I knew her for work. And coming into the position, it was just like, sort of, well, this, let's see how this goes. Like I said earlier, like, you know, I was excited about it, I came from a model of outreach that was a fee for service. So I was also running like a business, kind of for the state. And coming here, where it's all consultative technical assistance. It was like a dream, it was working with all these people where every day, we just got to sit around and talk about how we could improve student programming, teacher training, things like that. But, you know, Cyril still continues to this day to be such a great mentor of mine, you know, we just saw each other a couple of days ago. And I think that it's really important for new leadership to step up. But it's so helpful when you can make strong connections with the outgoing leadership so that you have somebody to talk things through not to do it the way they did it, because she'd never want us to keep doing exactly what she did. But to say, you know, what do you think about this? Is this crazy? Should we be doing this? And so, you know, it was kind of great that I got to come and follow her. And then also, I still get to tap her wisdom, which I just love.

A little bit about Emily’s podcast

Kassy:
Yeah, I thought that was… I hadn't thought about that, that aspect from your perspective on her. One of the cool things that you did when you became an outreach director was you started a podcast. And I was like, yes, we've needed a podcast in this field for so long. And it's just gonna increase our knowledge as professional. So thank you for doing that. Do you want to take a second and plug the podcast?

Emily:
Yeah, actually, that is so fun. I still do it with because I love it. And you know, as you know, it's just kind of a fun part of our work. When I was in Washington, I always wanted to start a podcast. And in fact, I was harassing my superintendent there constantly about it. And so when I moved to Texas, and I got to know the Outreach Programme, and that they had immediate department, which is unheard of in most schools, I kind of threw this idea out there. The concept was really that I'm learning about Texas, I don't know anything about services here. I don't know anything about what TSBVI does. And so instead of just having those conversations on the side, let's just do them publicly. And then I'm… then I was coming from a place of genuine curiosity that made it seem more natural, I think. But yeah, and so it's called a sense of Texas. And I think we all came up with it through a brainstorming session, the title. And there's been some regular producers, you know, one guy, Nathan's been doing it from the beginning. And then a couple other guys lol and Colin has had are also involved and it's just so fun. And I love to just talk to people and get new perspectives. And as you'll see by the episodes we've done, they're kind of all over the place. They started just TSBVI. And then I would just run into people at a conference and be like, hey, you want to come on my podcast. And they usually say yes, because it's, you know, for them, it's pretty easy. So it's fun.

Kassy:
Amazing! I love to listening to, especially the ones in Texas, because it gives you a really good understanding on people look at TSBVI from the outside in. They don't have enough pieces of the puzzle to figure out okay, how can I make this work for me? And I think for me, as somebody who worked at TSB for a while and I don't typically talk about that, but I got to see like, oh, that's… That's right. Like that is a gem and then oh, this is a gem because Texas, and how things are run is so special, but it's so supportive. That I think that's the key that really makes it and you really got to see personalities of the people that we follow anyway, like, these are the articles that our college students are printing out are from the TSBVI. website, and to be able to get the, the jokes and the laughter, Chris's laughter You know, which can just fill a room and, and people like that I found so heartwarming. And I just loved that you did that. It’s good.

Emily:
Yeah. It's very fun. I like it a lot. Yeah,

Being the first female superintendent

Kassy:
We can wrap this up very soon but I'd love to know about your experience as superintendent, and how has that been for you to be like, at the very top, you know, and doing a great job because you came in at a time when there was some controversy when things had been a little toppled over on accident. And from what I understand you were able to turn that around and really continue the ship steering in the right direction, not that it was in a bad direction at all. But it could not have been easy on like, at least the paperwork side to come in. And, like be the first female superintendent of the Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired just in general. How was that for you?

Emily:
Yeah, I don't… Maybe it's that naive thing? Again, I don't know. I just, it's one of those when when Bill announced that he was retiring, I thought, well, these… you never know when these jobs come up. Like sometimes they come up a lot. And sometimes they don't come up for years. And so, you know, my husband and I were like, well, we got to try, we got to try for it. And you know, it was a time like there was some budget stuff going on that we were working through. And you know, it's so funny, because in the year of 2019, the budget stuff was such a crisis. And now I laugh. I'm like, what, what, that was nothing, that was a picnic. Like, I know how to solve that problem in my sleep by now.

But the other stuff like then having COVID start, like, eight months after I took this job… seven or eight months. And I remember thinking that I need, you know, we have about 500 employees. And I'm like, I need these people to trust me immediately. And they don't know me. And so I had to move forward and make some decisions that were a little bit controversial, but, and I would sometimes get frustrated, like, don't people just trust me? And then it's like, oh, yeah, they don't know you. Like you can't just, you can't assume trust, it takes time to earn it. And I didn't have that time. And so that part was just a frustrating. But going through it, I think, you know, made me sort of get wiser faster, I guess I had to learn a lot of things on the run and how things work.

But ultimately, it's been very positive. Like we have a very strong leadership team. I just love the people here, like all types and departments and personalities. And I just feel so lucky. You know, when I was at the Washington State School, those were my people, like, I love them so much. And I think when I left, I cried for days leaving them, which is… it's a job, right? It's a job. And but then after coming here and going through the last few years that have been really hard. Like I feel just as passionately about the people here now that I just… I just love them. I wish you could quantify love, and they would never leave me.

Kassy:
That's the part that doesn't work with jobs because they can love you and still have to leave whatever is it. Oh, I love that. And you know, what I bet has happened is that they had to trust you. I mean, they’re… everybody working there is an adult. So they had free will, to take the steps that they needed to take for themselves. But for those now on the other side, I'm sure that they're like, alright, she's my girl. She's got my back. I mean, I'd always agree with her by like, we're gonna ride or die. We're gonna do this. Yeah, we still end of the school year, and then we'll figure it out.

Emily:
You know, I think as a leader, the one thing… You know, I don't want people to agree with me all the time. I don't want them to give me the answers I'm always looking for. But I really do want people to feel like I genuinely care. Like, I think that is the most important thing that we can show the people we work with and for and the families we work with and for is, you know, that even if we were in disagreement, like I really care about you, I care what you have to say. Yes, sometimes I get frustrated just like everybody does, but it isn't out of a lack of caring, like that's the thing that I think we're always trying to get across.

Kassy:
Absolutely. Oh my Gosh, this has been amazing. I have one last question that I like to ask everybody and the topic of our podcast here is a step forward. The theory there's, you really just have to take one step forward every day, every chance, you can just one step forward. Also some like fun mobility stuff in there. 

Emily:
I like it. 

Taking a step forward with Emily

Kassy:
Yeah, thank you. If you were to share one piece of advice with our community, who consist of O and M specialists, TVIs, parents, AT specialists, just generally, across the board in the VI world, what would you say would be a way that they could take one step forward in becoming, you know, better leaders themselves?

Emily:
That's a good question. Yeah, I have two answers. I can't decide. You know, the first one is to just say yes, like, not at the risk of giving up all your free time in your whole life. But if you get approached to do something that feels, you're not able to do or that pushes you out of your comfort zone, professionally, just say yes, just try. Like, I think that, you know, so many times, we feel like we're not the right person, or we're not the right one for the job, or it's a job that we couldn't possibly take on. But, you know, I would have never been an administrator except for, and I always give him credit for this, but you know, Dr. Craig Matter, he's a PH executive CEO, and he was my supervisor when I was a teacher. And he said to me, you know, I was gonna go into an O and M programme, and become an O and M and I was like, well, I haven't done O and M yet. So I've got to do that, you know, you gotta get your TVI, you gotta get your O and M. And Craig said, Emily, do not do O and M. He said, You need to get your administrative certificate. And I had never even considered that as a thing. And I said, I've only been a teacher for three years, why would I do my administrator certificate? And he said, You're just… you're a natural, do it, like just do it. And if I had thought too long and hard about that, I don't think I would have done it. Because I felt like I hadn't earned my seat at that table. But clearly, he had a good idea, because it's worked so far.

So I would say, just say yes. And the other thing, too, is like, I read a lot. I like to get book recommendations, not just about leadership, but about connecting with other people, you know, just that constant learning and self development and reflection. I think that's so important. I mean, I eat my words all the time. I apologise to people when I say things I shouldn't, you know, I try to grow constantly and a lot of that is just reading, you know, reading about leadership, reading other people's stories. And that's, I think that's been really helpful for me, too.

Kassy:
Oh, that is amazing. I loved both of those. But now I can't end this podcast without asking like, do you have a book recommendation? Is there something you're loving right now?

Emily:
Oh that's a great question. What have I just read? I gotta look around my… it's so funny. I have all these little quotes on post it notes around my desk. Funny, actually one of them. This is bad. This isn't a book or anything. But I have this, it says stop being defensive. Right here. Because when people ask me questions, and I can feel the hackles come up, and I'm like, it's not about you. Sometimes you need those little reminders.

Kassy:
That's nice.

Emily:
Oh, you know, a good one that I did was called The Happiness Advantage. Have you heard of this?

Kassy:
No.

Emily:
And so one of our board members recommended it. And I think the author's from Texas. But it talks about having a positive outlook, and every day writing down three things that brought you happiness in that day. And so I have a bullet journal, and I have a little spot where every day I have to write three little moments of sunshine. And at first, I thought it was so dumb. And I'm like, but I'm going to try it. And I started it like in the thick of COVID. And it really is good. And I like to flip back and be like, Oh, I remember that. So, so that was a good book, it had some good suggestions and it to just keep that like the benefit of a positive perspective.

Kassy:
Love it. And I like that you do it at the end of the day, because so often we do that stuff at the beginning of the day, but our primal brains are so tired by the end of the day that we forget all the good stuff, and we can go to bed like grumpy. I don't know if your brain does this, but like I have a rule. I do not make decisions after 6pm I'm just like, I… I'm done. We can revisit that. Like it doesn't matter if I'm still working but if you ask me if I have to make a decision. I'm like, I'm gonna write this email, and I'm gonna send it tomorrow. 

Emily:
That's so funny. In fact, that's a kind of a joke around here because I've told my administrators. For me, it's almost like two is pushing it two o'clock, because I make so many during the day. And I always say like, if you have a tough problem for me to solve, please come in the morning. Afternoon, I'm gonna be tired, it's probably not gonna go well.

Kassy:
Right. That's how I am. I don't make nearly as many decisions as you and they're not as to scale as you. So that makes sense. Thank you so much for your time, Emily, this has been such a joy I, I again, cannot thank you enough for your time and sharing your story.

Emily:
I'm happy to be here. And I'm excited about your podcast. Is it out already? Have you started publishing it?

Kassy:
Yeah, this will be our fifth season that we're pre-recording for right now.

Emily:
Wow, so you've been doing it a while. See, I should have been in Owen Emmer then I would have known about your podcast.

Kassy:
That's okay. I, in my own imposter syndrome. I haven't been asking people to come on the podcast very much just like in our O and M circles, people that I know or like, people that I look up to like my immediate mentors, but people like you. I mean, this. I was like, I couldn't even do it. I had to have my assistant do it.

Emily:
That's so funny. Just do it! You know, you got it. You got it. 

Kassy:
Yeah, I'm working on it. I’m working on it. But yeah, so we're recording for our fifth season and it feels like it's been that long, I guess, because you start with season one that starts not season zero. So thank you so much, I will have our team reach out to you with the media so you can see what it looks like, we'll just take a clip and put your headshot over it.

Emily:
And I don't worry about me like I really don't care. Whatever you do, I trust so.

Kassy:
I will not make you look bad at all. It's all good. You're on here because I very much so admire how much you've worked in what you do for our field. It's amazing. And I don't, I'm sure you don't realise the ripple effect of just like who's watching? And who's like cheering you on from the get go? Emily:That's so awesome. Do you still live here? Do you still…

Kassy:
I do. Yeah.

Emily:
Do you ever come to campus?

Kassy:
Not so much anymore? I haven't. Now I have contract students all around. And actually one of my contract students has been to campus and I think it was we ran into I put this on the recording, but I've been trying to get the student was low vision to be interested in like white cane day or like, getting involved in the community or anything. And no, no, no, no, I don't want to do any of it. I don't want to anyway, then we run into Heidi, just like both doing O and M lessons. And he was like, Oh, who is that girl Heidi student? And I was like, I don't know. But oh, you're interested now. Ah. So now he's went to short term problem just from running into Heidi and her student on the street. It is so funny.

Emily:
So cool.

Kassy:
I love it. I love it. I love it. 

Emily:
Well, if you're on campus, be sure to stop by and say hi, I will. I'm not sure if we've met in person. Have we? I've seen you in zoom plenty. 

Kassy:
Yeah, I think we've been in the same circles a little bit. I do think that I ran your NEO when you went through it because I remember Karolina going. Look, there's the new outreach director. Oh, yeah. But I wouldn't have known you. And at that time, I didn't know that I wasn't going to be working there anymore and all all the other stuff that happened. So if we met it was during that one time where Karolina was like, there’s that outreach director and then I saw you from afar and this.

Emily:
You know what's funny is I think I skipped out on most of NEO that day. And one of our other new employees that went through NEO with me, he constantly ever he to this day gives me a hard time he's like, I can't believe you skipped NEO, and you got to be the superintendent like that… fair, that's a fair assessment right there.

Kassy:
That's really funny. I think that the stories like that are what make you feel so real as a person and not just like, Oh, here's this administrator.

Emily:
Oh, pretty real. Well, it's thanks so much, Cassie and V inch definitely stopped by if you're around campus.

Kassy:
Oh well. You have a good one Emily.

Emily:
All right, thanks. Take care.

Kassy:
Bye.