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Braille, book, students, write, kids, contractions, learn, teacher, read, sentences, curriculum, teach, words, teaching, framework, success

Welcome back to the podcast, my friends! We have the pleasure of hosting Roberta Becker and Tamara Black, the authors of innovative books about Braille reading. Join us as we sit down with the creative minds behind this unique publication, exploring the motivation and vision that led to its creation. Discover the authors' personal journey and experiences in the world of Braille, along with the impact they hope to make with this educational resource.

In this podcast episode:

• Who is Roberta Becker and Tamara Black?

• Roberta and Tamara’s first encounter

• How to balance general education and TVI information?

• The struggle of learning Braille and UEB

• How do Roberta and Tamara write their book?

• Roberta and Tamara’s inspiring student stories

• The outstanding features of Roberta’s "UEB Practice Sentences" book and actual rundown

• What is the “Braille Blazer” book and how it was developed?

Transcript of the Episode:

Can I tell you a quick story? When I was in college, I went to school with some of the most brilliant minds. And granted we were 19 to 21, some of us were like maybe 26 at the time at the most. And Braille class comes around, some of us excel at Braille, like finish it before the semester and get all A's all the time. You know who you are, if you're listening, I love you, I am envious. That was not the case for me. I was stuck. I was so stuck. I had such a hard time with it, I eventually got it. And I think it was only until spring semester a little bit that I needed. In order to finish the Braille class. I don't know how your Braille classes are or were but with mine, you didn't move ahead until you aced the last chapter, or passed the last chapter, whatever the case may be. It was a struggle for me.

And then when I moved to Texas, and got my job as a full time O&M specialist and I didn't transfer my teaching certification, I didn't really use it. I mean, I couldn't legally teach Braille because I wasn't legally certified in this state I was certified in Florida, but not here. And so I would support Braille everywhere. And I'm so glad that I had that background as an Orientation and Mobility specialists because I quickly learned that not all Orientation Mobility specialists know Braille, and how they even got Braille on their maps. I was shocked, I don't know. But I could make my maps grade one, I can make them grade two. I could make shopping lists, I could Braille, I could whatever I had Duxbury on my computer, I knew how to use it all that stuff like I was good. Until UEB. And then I wasn't good anymore because I didn't know it.

And so, I noticed within myself, and maybe you've noticed, maybe with Braille, maybe with other things, that I started to shy away from it, I didn't feel as confident so I didn't teach it as much. And I didn't mandate correct reinforcements. And I just stuck with grade one. And I didn't learn UEB. And I kind of felt like that until I had this conversation with Roberta and Tamara, these two amazing, wonderful women that you're about to hear from. And thank you so much for clicking on this podcast episode, because you have just given yourself a gem, my friend. They are two of the most caring people and also brilliant minds, and there's like no ego there. I don't mind a little bit of ego when we're talking about experts, because there are so many people in our field, who will say, "Oh, thank you for your expertise. We're so excited to have you at this symposium, and we're so excited to learn from an expert like you," and they shy away from it, like no, own it, own it, it took you a lot. And when people know a lot, it's because they struggled a lot. You don't get to a place of competence unless you've struggled with something. So, I like to take their information and I've really been thinking about it and distilling it and I loved everything that they had to say, and really what they shared will really help people like me to take a step forward to being more confident, and for me at least supporting Braille. For you, if you're a TVI, teaching it and if you've been shying away from any aspect of Braille, UEB, I encourage you to listen to this episode. I also encourage you to join the TVI symposium, of course, but if nothing else, take what these women have to say about teaching and run with it. Now they're also going to talk about luck that Roberta has written and I'll let them get into that then, and we're gonna have links for the book in the show notes, so make sure you go ahead and grab that if you're interested, and also think about how you can take this information to help you move forward.

Roberta has been a teacher of students with visual impairments for 31 years. Understanding how difficult it is to both teach Braille and also get materials during her retirement, she has written two books that would make it easier for TVIs to teach Braille to their students. Prior to becoming a TVI, Roberta was a rehabilitation teacher who worked with adults who had lost their vision. Tomara has been a teacher of students with visual impairments for the last 13 years. Prior to that, she was a general education teacher teaching grades kindergarten through sixth for 13 years. Additionally, Tamara was a Mentor Teacher for student teachers from San Francisco State University's Vision Program. She has also been a Teacher Induction Program Mentor Teacher for the San Ramon Valley Unified School District. Tamara recently presented at the California Transcribers and Educators for the Blind and Visually Impaired conference with Roberta Becker promoting Braille literacy. Overall, these women are so fantastic. And I'm really excited that you have taken the time to listen in on what they have to say.

Who is Roberta Becker?

Kassy

Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited to have both of you here, Roberta and Tamara. I cannot explain to you how thrilled I am to have this conversation with both of you. Before we even jump into the rest of the conversation. I would love for each of you to tell our community a little bit about yourself. Roberta, would you like to go first?

Roberta

Oh, sure. Actually, I started a long time ago, I was student teaching, and I didn't know what to talk about to my group, so I went to Braille library to pick up some materials because I thought, "Okay, World of the Blind, that would be an interesting topic." When I walked into library, I heard the librarian say to someone else, "Who is that Braille class starting?" and I said, "That's for me." I want to take that Braille class and I did while I was in college, and then eventually, she recommended me for a position as a rehab teacher with blind adults who had lost their vision. I worked there for four years, and then I said, "Time to move on," and I went to San Francisco State University and started studying to be a TVI with Sally Mangold, who eventually became a very good friend of mine, and I became a TVI for 31 years. And when I finished TVIing, well, back to Sally Mangold, she had asked me to write a book with her husband, Phil, so, we had written a book called "Literary Braille Practice Sentences." Well, when UEB came along, I said, "Oh no, now we have to change. It's not good anymore," so decided to write another book, and I wrote a book called "UEB Practice Sentences" and that's it until Tamara called me one day, but we'll talk about that later, I guess.

Who is Tamara Black?

Kassy

Yeah. Wow. I love everybody's back stories and getting to know how you even got into the fields. That's a really interesting story. Tamara, I'd love to hear from you as well.

Tamara

So I was an elementary school teacher. I taught general ed elementary school, K through six, every grade. My husband also was an administrator. He was an assistant superintendent for the school district that we worked in, and he took a job in Northern California, which is how we ended up just outside of San Francisco, here. And I taught kindergarten, and that was during 2009, and there was a recession. And in the state of California, you don't have statewide tenure, it's by district. So even though I had been teaching for 13 years, I was shockingly laid off by my husband's business department, which was kind of a bummer, and wasn't sure what I was going to do. I knew they were going to hire some teachers back, but during that summer, that was, gosh, that was last summer I had off, that was 13 years ago. That summer, special ed came to me and said, "Would you be interested in being a teacher for students with visual impairments?" And I'm like, "I don't even know what that is. I don't know. I'm a general ed teacher. I don't know if I can do special ed. That's like a special type of angel that walks on this earth, our special ed teachers and I don't know if I'm qualified." So I said "no" a bunch of times, and then found myself at San Francisco State that August going to school again, because I already had a Master's. We just moved to the bay area, have two young kids - one with some severe health issues, no family. There was no way I could go back to school and work full time with a husband that was also in a new job and working a million hours. But it took me three years to do the two year program, and fortunately, I knew how to teach. I just had to learn the special ed part, right? So it wasn't completely foreign to me working with kids, but the special ed part, definitely, I had a lot to learn and Braille just very quickly became a passion.

When I was a general ed teacher, reading and writing weere huge literacy, has always been huge to me, because it's a form of communication and you have to have that no matter what what you're doing to survive in this world, right? To be employed and to be a productive community member, you have to be able to communicate and be literate. So, then, throughout working with my kids and learning more about Braille and all the things that I needed to do when Braille switched, I'm like, "Great, I just learned this code," and now it's switching to UEB. Everything I've used in the past was great. I'd used Mangold, I'd used the cell, and talking tactile tablet, and different things. I was Googleing UEB Braille curriculum. My first master's is in Curriculum and Instruction, one total nerd about curriculum and instruction. And I was using the super old patterns that the district just had, and I didn't really care for it. I hope that's okay to say. I didn't enjoy it.

I was Googleing different curriculum for UEB and there wasn't a ton out there, and I came across Roberta and actual tactuals, and like through website, and I was super interested in it, and they said, "If you have any questions, call." So I called, expecting to get the automated voice routine, and it was Roberta. And we talked on the phone for two, two and a half hours, I think the first time we spoke, and I just had so many questions, and she had so many answers, and it was so wonderful and bucket filling to talk to somebody who just got it. And I ordered her book right then and there, I think with my own money, I didn't do the purchase order. I wanted that book in my hands straightaway, because I had a dual media student who was in third grade, and we were at that point in Braille that the UEB changes were happening, and Roberta's book was what got us through that. So that's how we met, and that's a little bit about my background. So here I am now 13 years later. So I have 13 years in general ed and I just finished my 13th year in special ed, which is kind of a weird, and 13 has always been my lucky number so it's weird, but a really weird point in my career right now, so it's kind of cool.

The struggle of learning Braille and UEB

Kassy

Yeah, I wouldn't even say weird point in your career. Really cool, exciting point in your career to be able to balance both the general ed information and TVI information. And I have to give it up to both of you guys because I do not like Braille. It was so hard for me. What you guys probably don't know. Because when I moved to Texas, I didn't transfer my teaching certificate, so I have my Master's as a TVI as well. And I have always found that to be such a blessing as an Orientation Mobility specialist, but I didn't transfer it over and so be it. So I don't have that information and that knowledge that you guys have, but I haven't gone through the classes, and I remember Braille being so hard that when UEB came around, I was sitting on this ledge, right? Do I learn this new code and stay up with it, even though I can't teach it? And I'm basically stuck with grade one for forever because that's all that legally I'm allowed to teach. And I can put in maps or whatever, but do I learn UEB? Or do I stick with what I know? And I stuck with what I know. And then it felt like the train left the station, like after that, it was so hard to figure out and what did I miss? And where are the holes? And where are the gaps? So the fact that there is curriculum to bring us through and to even maybe help people like me who may not be TVIs, maybe O&Ms, or maybe dual, but didn't have as much information about UEB to help support us, I think is so crucial. And I'm so grateful that you guys did all that work cause curriculum instruction is also not easy. There's so much science behind it, and we often get it wrong or doing things the way that we've always done them, which is not the correct way anymore.

Tamara

Definitely you should get Roberta's book, Roberta, you need to send her your book.

Kassy

I'll order it, Roberta. I will. It feels reachable. Does that make sense? Whereas before it didn't.

Tamara

But that's the best thing. And I mean, we can talk about the books later too, but it's so easy. You pick it up, and you can run with it.

Kassy

Yeah.

Outstanding features of Roberta’s "UEB Practice Sentences" book

Tamara

And whether you've taught before, whether your background is in curriculum instruction, for me, it was very easy to pick up and run with. But even for people who have never taught before or don't know a 100% what they're doing, I mean, not that I know 100% what I'm doing, but you can just pick it up and it's so broken down into pieces to where it's very easy to understand, very easy to teach. The first book has the sim Braille in it. Because for me when I'm teaching my different Braille kids at different levels, depending on where the highest one is, usually is where my brain stays refreshed, because if you don't use it, you lose it, right? So to be able to go back and be like, "Oh, what is there again? T H E I R?" You can look at it, it's right there, in the sim Braille. So that's one of my favorite parts about it.

Roberta

What's really nice about it, and I don't mean to go off topic, I just want to jump on to what Tamara was saying, what's really nice about the first book, "UEB Practice Sentences" is that Braille is confusing enough for anybody, teacher or students, and this takes away a lot of the confusion because it takes away all of those rules that you have to learn about, when you can use this contraction and when you can't use this contraction. All exceptions are excluded from the book. So basically, you're learning to be cognizant of the contractions that are in a word, which contractions you need to use, and you don't have to decide, "Am I allowed to use this here? Or am I not allowed to use this here?" So simplifies it. It doesn't make you an expert already for certification, but it's great for beginning with students, and it's great for teachers or transcribers, or parents who don't know.

Thoughts that capture them in writing their book

Kassy

Yeah, I can totally see that. Can I ask you guys a question? Roberta, you wrote a book and then Tamara, you came into the equation. When you're looking at writing a book of this nature, where there's curriculum involved, what is one of the first things that you sit down to do or to like write down to capture your thoughts?

Roberta

Well, that's a good question. Basically, I have to be honest, that when I started the "UEB Practice Sentences" book, I started with the framework from "Literary Practice Sentences" that I had done with Phil Mangold. So I worked with that framework, but this book that I have written has evolved so much from that book. It's become break everything down to the easiest way. And in fact, I was telling Tamara the other day, that after I had written the first edition, I had a Eureka moment. And I said, "I could have broken down this part more, the word size, and I could have broken down the dual cell contractions." And people really need that broken down. And that's when I took the first book and went into the second and made it the second edition. So, I started with the framework of the other. When we started together on the Braille Blazer book, that's the new one that's just coming out, we worked with the same order of contractions, and Tamara and I would confer like 2 3 4 times a week on what she needed for her students. So she was telling me what was needed and I was going racing my little brain around how to make it happen, and then I'd go and show it to her, and she'd say, "Well, this works. But that doesn't work." She tried with her kids. And I'd be sending her packages of all the different lessons. Try to roll out.

Tamara

Kind of cool, because going back to the 13th and whatnot to, Roberta has been retired for 13 years, and I've been a TVI for 13 years. It's just kind of interesting in the way that it's panned out, and it's been so great, being able to take her, because I bought your first edition. And then I have several copies of the second edition because when COVID happened, I made sure all my colleagues had that book so that all of our Braille students were learning from the same curriculum, and then developing this book. It's so great because Roberta was writing it and I was able to apply it with my students and say, "Oh, this one likes this and this one doesn't like that, and we like this, but not this part. We need more and more and more of this because some kids just need extra repetition."

And the other cool thing about Roberta's books is that nothing is ever new. It all builds on what's previously been learned. So I would take the chunk of contractions that my kids were learning and I would try to make the sentences more personal or put their name in it or talk about Spider Man or whatever the kid was into. But then I'm like, "Oh, wait, I can't use spider man because he doesn't know E R yet." And so I couldn't write the sentences the way that Roberta magically has created this curriculum because nothing's new. There's only contractions the kids have previously learned and I think that's the magical piece to it is that there's no surprises, it's all built on what they already know, and reading, which is hard for kids, right? And sometimes my dual media kids are very self conscious to try to read in Braille, and the sentences are so easy and so repetitive, I'm like, "There's nothing on this page you don't know. You know all of these letters. You know all of these signs." And watching their confidence, like right in front of me, is just incredible.

I even tried to convey that to Roberta like, she would Zoom into some of our lessons, you know, just to watch and to see what was going on. And just to watch that magic happen where they were sitting up a little bit straighter, and this one little one, she's in middle school, she's in a mild STC class and when we first started working together, she knew 11 contractions and she's been learning Braille for five years but she know 11 contractions and she'd sit with her hair, all in front of her face, and she'd slouched over and just after a few weeks, maybe a couple months of working with her and using Roberta's book, she's sitting up straighter, her hair is pulled back out of her face, she's reading with confidence. When Roberta came to California in April, she was able to read with the student and see what I had been talking about and from where we were to where we are now, it just it gives me the juiciest just talking about it because it's life changing.

Roberta's inspiring story of her student

Kassy

I can see it in your face, too. When you talk about this student, you did, you hunched over, so if you guys heard a difference in her voice, she showed you she hunched over and then she sat back up straight. But there's almost like a tear coming to your face. I think a lot of us have had students that we care so much about, and not that we don't care about all of our students, but that we can actually see the progress and there's a visceral reaction within ourselves, and that's why we do this. It's not for our own egos sake. We can read. It's to be able to touch the lives of other students, of our students, or our learners. And what we're tasked with on a daily basis is we have like, six hours of lessons, let's say, but we have 45 minutes to plan those six hours. And what ends up happening is that, if we don't know something, a lot of times we just shy away from it. But the things that we're good at, we kind of get better at or we like, stick with, or we take on more of those students.

And this, you know, we're talking about multiple different books here that have been written and we'll break it all down in a little bit for those of you guys in our community who are listening or interested, and we'll tell you where to get them and all that jazz. But it really sounds like being able to open the book and have the curriculum right in front of you, allows you to lean into that part, you as the VI specialist, allows you to lean into that part that you may not feel the most confident in and still be impactful and still consistently teach impactful lessons, which, who doesn't need that? That's amazing.

Roberta, did you have a student that comes to mind that you can think of, that really prompted you to say, "You know, we need books on this," as opposed to some other form of professional development?

Roberta

Actually, my first year of teaching, I had a Braille student, and she was in kindergarten. No, she wasn't a Braille student that year, she ended up becoming a Braille student. And maybe that's where we started thinking of it. I knew how difficult it was for me. I knew materials were needed. So when I retired, I was a little bit terrified of being retired. What am I gonna do? I have nothing to do. Well, this is it. I've been very busy. And the books have been very positively recorded by our community. I have only heard good reviews. If you have bad reviews, you can let me know too. But so far, none.

Kassy

That probably goes because you did so much research and work before they got put out as well. So you're had a student who became a Braille reader, your first year teaching, and then after that, did you find that because you love Braille and you're good at it that you ended up just like naturally taking on most of the Braille students or having a caseload that leaned Braille?

Roberta

Well, no, I was actually the only teacher of the visually impaired in my district. So I got every student, but I remember people saying to me, "Oh, it's too bad. You don't have a Braille student. It's too bad." I was like, "No, it's a good thing. It's good. They're not Braille students." But eventually, there were more, definitely more.

Creating a curriculum for teachers' support on UEB

Kassy

Yeah. And I'm sure that you could identify their needs as well, because you see that too, where people if they're not great teachers in one specific area, especially Braille, it can be easy to say, "Oh, they don't need it right now" or have a reason. And I only say that just because I've seen so much paperwork throughout my many years. My background with the students that I had, I was not the only one in the district in school that I worked out for many years, but I saw lots of paperwork come through that school, because we had high turnover on purpose, and so it's really interesting to kind of see those things. So for you guys, what has been one of the most challenging aspects of taking UEB and creating a curriculum around it that will help teachers and not overwhelm them?

Tamara

I think what's so great for me in my experience, I guess because my background is in general education. With all of my students that have come through, I always, always offer Braille or suggest Braille or say is Braille a scary word. We actually had eight or nine dual media kiddos, so students with blue vision that also wanted to learn Braille, just so they had another tool in their belt at the end of the day after navigating school and the lunch room and your locker and classes, and then having to go home and do homework, you know, to be able to switch gears and go into Braille for reading history or for having to read or write an essay after using their eyes and their residual vision all day. So I'm like, give me all the Braille kids and let's teach everybody Braille because it's so amazing. And I think that big turning point for me was partly in Roberta's book.

But when I first started that first year, I was working on an emergency credential. I was doing the program and teaching at the same time, and I had a student who was in eighth grade and my old STC student, she knew quite a bit of Braille, but not all of it, and she was using the old patterns book. I didn't enjoy it. It was difficult to navigate the curriculum from the teacher book versus the student book. I'm like, "What is even the point of this lesson?" And it was overwhelming to me to try to learn how to teach that curriculum if that makes sense.

When I got Roberta's book, it was not overwhelming at all. It was very easy. It was broken down into pieces and bite sized bits that that again, like I said anybody could teach and teach themselves as well. There wasn't all of this background that you had to know or that you had to figure out before you taught a lesson. It goes in a very specific order, which makes sense, and it follows the different rules as they come in, whereas I feel like other curriculums, it's just kind of more random, and I couldn't make sense of that for myself. And if I figured I couldn't make sense of that, how am I gonna make it make sense for little ones or for students? Right? So I didn't feel overwhelmed at all in using Roberta's all three of her different books. Well, the two different books, the two editions, the simplicity of it, and the order and structure of it I think is what makes it magical.

An actual rundown of Roberta’s “UEB Practice Sentences" book

Kassy

So we've been talking a lot about the books. Can we give like an actual rundown, bulleted outline for our community as to what we are talking about? I'm gonna start with your first book, Roberta the "UEB Practice Sentences." Was that your first book in UEB anyway?

Roberta

Yes.

Kassy

Okay. And then there were multiple volumes of that?

Roberta

Nope, that's one book. It is available in in print teacher's edition, and also Braille teacher's edition for teachers who read Braille. It's also available in single line, double sided, no spaces in between for students who read Braille. But really, the best one to get is the double spaced, double sided book, or some people insist on the single sided, and I'll do that, I don't recommend it necessarily.

Double space allows them to feel in between the lines when they're tracking, which way I'm going to track for you so that it looks correct. You can feel in between on the blank line, and you don't get confused by the letters above it and the letters below it, because if your fingers, if you're feeling the single space, the kids don't know where their fingers are, they don't know which dots they're supposed to be feeling and not, that's why I really advocate for the double space. That comes in two volumes, that should question.

Everything you need to know about UEB practice sentence is on the website. I'm certainly always welcome. Questions. If you want to email me with questions. That's great. No problem. First, take a look at the website because it's got everything. It doesn't have everything about Braille Blazer yet, but I'm still finishing that up so I can get it out before the end of July, which I promised and I will.

The “Braille Blazer" book

Kassy

So tell us about Braille Blazer.

Roberta

Braille Blazer is a book that's made for anybody at any age who's learning to read Braille - an adult, a child, anyone beginning in Braille reading, because what I think the older or dual media kids need to learn is that they're not learning to read, because that really inhibits them. Because they feel like, "I know how to read. I should be able to pick up this book and go forward." But they're not learning to read, they're learning to read Braille. And that's totally different.

So it starts at the very beginning, which is letter identification, tracking skills, and then it teaches individual words, one at a time, no more than two at a time. So they get practice on that. There are different types of activities because it is an activity book, and the activities will be tracking or reading sentences, no more than five sentences. It's a very simple book. It doesn't overwhelm anybody, but it gives a great amount of practice. And whatever words you've learned somewhere before will be continued throughout the book. Same thing as with the "UEB Practice Sentences," there are no surprises, everything is introduced to you, and then it's used repeatedly, throughout the book.

Tamara asked me to write little paragraphs, so we wrote little paragraphs. They're very short, but they're using the words repeatedly, the same words that you've learned over and over again. Do you want me to give you a little example?

Kassy

Sure. Yeah, I would love that.

Roberta

Let me start with very beginning. You learn the two words, "I can." And the sentences are "I can." "Can I?" "Can I?" "I can." "I can." And if this teacher helps the student make the inflections, it makes it a little more interesting, otherwise, it's you know, two words. But then the next two words are "do" and "it" and eventually you get to the sentences, "I can do it." And you use those words over and over again. And then there's sentence jumble, where I show you the word "do" and "it" as the model sentence and then underneath, "Do it book." And you have to find the word that doesn't belong. So you're constantly getting more practice using the same words "do" and "it."

Then Tamara asked me to write paragraphs, "Do it." "I can." "I can do it." So that was our variety. There's also just tracking to get used to the feel of the particular words and tracking to find the different word out of a set of four words. And that's what goes on. There were also pattern questions. There's lots of review, a lot of practice, and the book will be in individual sheets, so that the students can take them home for homework, or extra practice at home, and they'll have be reading the same words that they read in school, and they will feel like hot stuff. And that's what it's always about, building the students self esteem, self confidence.

Kassy

It sounds like you guys have thought of everything and you can get this at actualtactuals.com. Is that correct?

Roberta

That is right.

Tamara

I love that the first four words that she started with her "I Can" and "Do It" because right from the very beginning, those are the first four words that they learned. Another little difference that I just wanted to throw and she said twice that Tamara asked to write sentences or paragraphs, I asked her write paragraphs, because in the first book, most of the sentences fit on one line, so the kids were able to read straight across that one line but then, when they had to learn how to split their hands to read continually, teaching them in the hand split, which is why I wanted Roberta to use paragraphs, it's the same sentences just in a paragraph form instead of just one sentence across each line, if that makes sense.

And the Braille blazer book does not have punctuation, which also was a big deal, because it was confusing for some of my students, one in particular with a capital indicator and the period indicator, or question marks or exclamation points when they're just trying to learn the contractions. So we talked about that at length, she's like, "Should we take the punctuation out?" I'm like, "I don't know what's gonna kill me to take the punctuation out." But doing it and trying those sentences without punctuation made a huge difference for the one student in my mind that I'm thinking of, and it was so much easier for him without the punctuation that I was like, "Yeah, I think it's good without the punctuation as long as the kids understand, right?" Sentences generally have periods or quotation marks or exclamation points or whatever in them, but that was another big piece that made this book broken down into smaller pieces, if that makes sense.

Roberta

Well, the other thing about the book is that there are sentences and there are questions, so even though the punctuation is not in the book, the teacher can take a flashcard and "Tell me what punctuation goes at the end of the sentence." And you can talk about punctuation, which would go here, "Is it a question? Or is it a sentence? Does it get a period or question mark?" So it's not like it's avoided, it's used and it can be used in a fun way.

The TVI Online Symposium

Kassy

I love that. It really sounds like you guys have put a lot of thought and effort into these books. You know, what I'm also really looking forward to is the TVI symposium where I'm gonna get to learn even more, because we've been having this great conversation and I love getting to know each of you and your background, and the reason why you decided to create the book or come in Tamara and support the creation of this book. But it's also another thing to sit down with you guys and learn all about it. Can you tell us what you'll be talking about at the TVI symposium? Give us a little like sneak peek for what you have in your minds already.

Tamara

Well, when we presented this book, we did CTEVBI last year remote because it was my spring break and I was at Disneyland, talking about how I use the book with my Mickey ears on and everything, and then we presented it in person this year in San Francisco, and it was really great because everybody was able to talk about the new book, as well as a little bit about the old book, and a lot of people were familiar with the "UEB Practice Sentences" book, the first book, and a lot of people were already familiar with that book, so then being able to talk about how the second book came to be and how I've used it with my various students.

I've got a four year old who has some vision right now, but it's degenerative. I have an eight year old who's completely a 100% reading Braille and has won the Braille Readers or Readers Competition and her grade level like all of the years she's placed for a second or third in kindergarten, first grade and second grade. She has zoomed with Roberta as well. Roberta's ran a lot of ideas by her, she's edited a lot of Roberta's work, reading through, so I try to talk about how I use the book and how it has benefited my various students across the board, and Roberta talks more about her brilliance behind writing the book, because that's what it is. It's her magic and her brilliance that on the page, right?

Roberta

I won't fit out of this door.

Kassy

You guys should have seen Roberta's face when she got a compliment. We all know that that was a very well deserved compliment. Well, I'm looking forward to learning more from you guys. And of course, you know, listening to a podcast episode is not the same as learning from you. And we had talked before we started recording about the power of connections even online. And I think that it's so true even though we're going to be learning from you guys at the TVI symposium online. It's not necessarily the same as if we were in person and I get that the obstacles to get to it also are not the same, which is why I love doing it.

I shared with you guys before we started recording that, you know my kids they're home today. They are the whole reason that this whole thing started because I have a hard time leaving. And luckily, I live in a place where most of my conferences end up being in my city. But when they're not, it's a big ordeal for mom to leave the house, let alone the city or the state or the country to go learn from top notch people like at the national level for conferences, you get much better presentations than you do at just the local level. And I love all of our local people, I absolutely do. But there's just just no comparing it. And now we get to have that top notch national international level presentations like what you guys are going to be doing without having to leave.

Roberta and Tamara’s first encounter

And you guys had mentioned that you work together for five years before you met in person. And I just love that. Can you share a little bit of that story? Just so we can get a little bit of that sweet background.

Tamara

Like I said, I just called her, I called her a lot because I had questions about the book. And I just made that connection with her over that very first phone call. I'm fortunate I'm not the only TVI in my district, I have others, but to be able to talk to other people who have this wide range of experience. Roberta taught for 31 years. I'm on here 26, but for her to have all of that knowledge and all 31 of her years were with people with visual impairments, where I was half and half still.

But just having that connection with somebody, even just through the phone back then, that was just on the phone that wasn't even FaceTime or anything, and to be able to talk to somebody who understood what I was going through and the frustrations and some of the challenges of being a VI you know, to be able to talk to somebody that had just fresh ears about what I was going through and had no connection to me or the district or the kids I was talking about or whatever, to be able to bounce all of that off of her and use her wealth of knowledge and wisdom helped me get through some rough situations, even just this past school year was a little bit rough, and being able to have just another person on your team, unofficially, who understands what you're going through, and that turned into FaceTimes, and Zooms, and presentations, and she likes to tell the story of how the second book became so I'll let her tell that.

Roberta

Okay. So Tamara and I had, I think, spoken once before, and she called me one day, and she said, "It's Tamara blah, blah, blah." And then she said, "Roberta, I want to tell you I love your book." And I said, "Yeah, okay, thank you very much." I kind of knew that already because she had ordered so many. And she said, "But we need more." And I said, "No way. I am not doing another book. Too much." And then at night, I go to bed and I started thinking, "You know, a lot of people have asked me to write a book for younger students, so let me think about this." I think it must have been the next day or at most two days later that I called her back and I said, "Okay, let's fill it." She said, "I'll do anything I can to help you." And she did. And we work through it. And like I said, spoke many times a week and sent out many, many samples. And it was really great. It's great work, Tamara.

Kassy

Oh, that's so beautiful. And then you finally got to meet in person this year, right?

Roberta

Right, we did a presentation together. That's CTEBVI. And I think it worked out great. And, you know, if you wanted to, we could do a similar presentation the next time. We have the PowerPoint, you know, we could run off that talking about Braille Blazer, explaining it to people who don't know it, and showing them how it works. That's up to you. And we'll talk about it.

Kassy

Well, I just love the fact that you guys have built this beautiful relationship through the phone, and then online, and I've also had an experience where somebody left their email address on their web page, and then I wrote them, and they wrote me back, and that's the whole reason we're sitting here. It's Dona Sauerburger. She left her email address on the internet, and I was like, "Hey Dona, you don't know this, but I read your blog every day, and I have for the past 10 years. I have this idea. What about this?" And she answered me. And there's just such a power in having that mentor even from afar to say, "Okay, do it this way. Don't do it that way. What do you think about this idea?" And somebody who's been there and done it, who can be accessible, and I think that's one of the things that I love about this field. And from your guys' conversation circling back, it sounded like when you met it wasn't weird or awkward.

The development of the second book

Tamara

I was just so surprised to actually get Roberta Becker. I was just picturing some sort of automated you know, "Press one for customer service," or whatever, and I got her and I could just ask her all of my questions that I had, again, because being a curriculum instruction nerd going through all the questions like "Why is this better? Why do I need this? How is this gonna help my kid?" And because it's her book, she wrote it, she created it, she was able to answer everything, a 100% authentically, and then just being able with the second book to take the actual pages that she was writing and free matter was coming my way all the time and I still have a bunch of the original pages she's like, "Recycle those. Recycle those." To take the sheet that she wrote just a couple of days and then for it to get shipped from New York to California, and then me to take those pages literally hot off the press to the fingers of my students, trying out the word jumbles, or trying out the paragraph or trying out a couple of other different things that we tried out and what worked and what didn't work and what they liked, and what they didn't like. That's how the book was born. It was really just the trial and error of our ideas, Roberta's ideas, and her beautiful sentence writing, and the feedback from you know, my handful of Braille students that I've worked with over the last few years. So it's been exciting to watch it come to fruition and to see it bound in and ready to go. It's very exciting, and I hope we get to talk about it at the symposium in September, that will be so great.

Roberta

It was a very big learning process because when I first started, I made it much too difficult, and I didn't want to, so this book is probably in its third incarnation. Because at first, when we did the sentence jumbles, I was ahead. 15 words, plus the line, now it has three words, across the line. You only have to pick out the one word that doesn't fit instead of five words that don't fit, but that's the feedback I got from Tamara.

Tamara

And with my kids, not me, I don't know what I'm doing. It was my students.

Roberta

But that will make kids feel more successful, because what Tamara was telling me is that it's much too hard for them, and so we made it easier, made it one word, and in the whole book, every sentence jumble only has one word that doesn't fit.

Tamara

And they're activities based to help the kids confidence, right? It's to make them feel good and confident about what they're doing, not "Oh, well, you know, page five was too hard because it had eight extra words." It's to give them confidence and to build them up for success, not to make it hard for them. That's not the point.

Roberta

And to raise the interest level, its activity involves use stickers, use push pins, use something, so that the child not just reading, reading, reading, reading, there's no excitement there. But Tamara use the stickers like crazy with her students.

Tamara

Anything to make it fun, right? Anything to make it fun and keep it interesting for them, and for them to have that bit of success each day, makes them want more success the next day, and that's like kind of the whole background philosophy of my teaching style is that we want them to feel good about themselves and confident in what they're learning and confident to be able to sit up straight and put their hair back and be like, "Yeah, I'm the only kid in the school that can read Braille. How cool am I?" Not, "I have to read Braille," or "I can't see so I have to do this," and it's awful and boring. My whole goal is to make it fun and exciting and interesting for them. And using the tools like Roberta's books are huge in implementing that.

An advice for the community

Kassy

I just want to hug you both. I hope I get to meet you in person, too. Oh, this has been so enjoyable. Um, let's wrap up. And I'd love for each of you guys to give our community a tip. If you could give one piece of advice to help our community take one step forward in the direction of being a better teacher of students with visual impairments, what would you say?

Roberta

I always say and it's written in the Braille Blazer book, Success breeds success," which is exactly what Tamara just said. But if people don't know about this, I have been sharing about the Facebook groups, you probably know about them. Some people actually don't. The Facebook groups are great. The two go to groups, and there are more than two, are Teachers of Students with Visual Impairments and the other one is Teachers of Students with Visual Impairments slash O and M Specialists. And there's so much to learn there and you can ask any question that you want and there'll be people to help you.

Kassy

That's true. I love those groups. We'll link them below and we'll also link actual tactuals below as well. Tamara, what would you say would be your piece of advice?

Tamara

I think just finding your people. Roberta's definitely a person that I found when I was just looking at curriculum to get to help my students, and fortunately, I looked into so much more than just finding a book. But to get up every morning and do what we do and to face some of the challenges that we face, you have to have your people, right? Whether it's people in the VI field, sure, of course, but also just your people that help you be a better version of yourself each day so that you can carry that on and share that with your students to make them more successful and stronger each day, I think in a lesser form, and maybe that's why Roberta and I clicked so easily as you know, success build success, right? If you feel good and confident about what you're doing, you're gonna want to do it more, and that pertains to our students, I feel like that pertains to us, that pertains to our O&M instructors, and our teachers and everybody else on our IEP teams, right? That if we can build each other up and work together for the success, the ultimate success of our students, then that's what we're here for, right? I don't do this for the big fat paycheck, right? I do it because I truly want to see my students succeed and do well and to tackle this great big world in all the ways that they possibly can. And again, I feel very strongly that literacy is a huge piece of that, and that's what I'm trying to bring them each day.

Kassy

How beautiful. I'm gonna call it a Freudian slip. When you said, my kids, we all say it. But I really do. I'm like, "These are mine. They're mine.”

Tamara

I'm not sure how my actual kids feel about that. But they know, they know like, they're at Target, like, "Oh, I pick this up for so and so because I know she likes princesses," and, "Oh, I saw this." And I have two girls that are 21 and 17, and they know, after 13 years, they're like, "Oh, we saw this, and we thought you might like this because it's cars," or you know, whatever. So I think they've adapted but they're all my kids.

Kassy

Exactly. But we have the hearts big enough for it, too, hearts big enough for all of them. Well, I just have to thank both of you so much for coming on the podcast today. I can't wait to work with you guys behind the scenes and see your presentation at the TVI symposium. For those of you guys, if you're curious about the TVI symposium, it's happening September 21st and 22nd of 2023, and you can find out more information on TVI symposium.com. At the time of this recording, the agenda is not finalized, but hopefully by the time it's out, the agenda will be finalized and up. We're just waiting on a couple more contracts. Thank you both so much. I appreciate you.

Roberta

Thank you very much.

Tamara

Thank you.

That was one of my favorite interviews to date. I'm really excited about the TVI online symposium and how it's actually coming along. This is something that you guys, our community, wanted, you asked for for years, and finally we were able to have the capacity to do it and look at the amazing agenda that has come from it. Most of the presenters that I've talked to you, they've said, "You know, I want to do this because I really believe in your mission." And I think that the presenters themselves, the experts in our field, know how many people can't get to a conference in person, and they want to be able to touch those lives as well. And honestly, I just find that to be one of the most beautiful parts about our community and our field in general is that everybody is so heart centered, and really doing things for the right reasons. If you're interested in the TVI online symposium, regular registration is going on now through September, and you can find the agenda as well as all information at TVIsymposium.com.